Monday Manufacturing Motivation – with Carroll Thomas

Damon Pistulka  00:03

Damon? Yes, Curt. Happy Monday. Happy Monday to you, man,

Curt Anderson  00:08

a man I like I’m actually how many of these have we done? Do you have like, are we over 200? I know you’ve done how many? How many live shows? Have you done? Would you say?

Damon Pistulka  00:18

Yeah, I don’t know.

Curt Anderson  00:20

Hundreds, like, hundreds, right? I’ve done a couple of like, I’m actually I’m actually nervous today. Yeah. I’m, like, totally starstruck. So I want to introduce my friend to Carroll Thomas. Carroll. Happy Monday to you. How are you?

Carroll Thomas  00:36

I’m fine. Happy Monday to you too. I love Mondays.

Curt Anderson  00:41

Thank God, it’s Monday. So I’m going to first off welcome everybody to manufacturing Monday motivation. We are just thrilled. Honored. What a privilege it is. Like I said, like I’m actually I’m a little verklempt I’m starstruck today. So my friend Carroll Thomas, we’re going to dig into a fantastic story. Here. Damon ready? Dude, are you ready for this one? I am ready to get a good I told him I touch over the weekend. I said get a good night’s sleep. Okay, I gave him the warning. So, okay, here we go. Even though you lost an hour. Here we go. So Kanan. What happens when a young person goes off to college, a great elite college on the East Coast. Maybe Drexel, just I’m giving you a hypothetical, right? They want to be a fashion designer, maybe maybe make shoes or just something like that. I don’t know. I’m just kind of throwing things out there. And then they ended up they find out that they find themselves at this art direction going into like an art degree, art career, if you will. And then from being in the art world. they gravitate towards QVC you remember when QVC were old enough, you remember QVC came out? Right? Barry Diller, Barry Diller like the multibillionaire came out with QVC. Let’s just say this person and with the drug, so want to get into fashion ends up at QVC. And they’re on this program. It’s called Quest for the best one, it’s a quest for America’s best. They go around the entire country to find manufacturers, 20 manufacturers in all 50 states. From there, they discovered this thing called the M E. P. For our friends out there. That’s a manufacturing extension partnership. This person just hypothetically evolves and starts a career at the MEP ends up from there going to the SB DC the Small Business Development, high level position, work with tons and tons of entrepreneurs around the country. And then Damon, are you ready for this? Yes, becomes the VP director of the men Manufacturing Extension Partnership. I’m just like, does that sound like a truth? If I told you that? Does that sound like a true story? It does not. Oh, just you failed a pop quiz, my friend. I did. That is a true story. We’re gonna be touching on my friend Carroll. Carroll before we dig into this amazing incredible wonderful career guys, if you’re out there today. I see Gary from Rochester is here. He Summer’s here. Summer was our guest recently. Yes. You’re all great to see you Bob feathers is here, my friend. So yeah, having

Damon Pistulka  03:08

lunch. Listen, you

Curt Anderson  03:09

know, I’m telling you this might be this is a blockbuster. Okay. You’ve had an amazing, incredible career. I’m done talking for the rest of our program here because you’re gonna My question for you. You had this amazing, incredible story. Great career as a little girl growing up. Who was your hero? Who was behind the scenes? Who’s the hero that’s behind that built this powerhouse? person that we’re interviewing today? Who was your heroes? A little girl growing up?

Carroll Thomas  03:43

My dad.

Curt Anderson  03:46

Hey, big girl. Dads. That’s our favorite answer. So yes, it is.

Carroll Thomas  03:54

Alvin.

Curt Anderson  03:57

Bear with us. Alvin. Tell us a story about Albin. And why was Alvin. And I know we talked a lot about mom in our recent conversation. But why was Alvin a hero to you growing up?

Carroll Thomas  04:07

Yeah, actually, both were. But my dad is very interesting because he came from a family where his mother and father were entrepreneurs. They were they had their own cleaning business. They were they were actually I guess you would say domestic cleaners in homes and stuff. And during the summers, I would go there and my grandma taught me how to make a toilet shine. And I was you know, proud. I tell everybody I know how to make a toilet. And and my dad always believed in hard work. He was a man of very, very few words. But he you know always amazed me at his perseverance and everything that he did, and he got into computer way or Really, I mean, from the very, very beginning, like, I would say, the end of like 6970. And he got into computers, the card readers and, and all like that, and, and was a systems analyst and stuff. And I thought that he was, you know, just he was way ahead of his time and just knew all kinds of different things. And so I wanted to, I knew I couldn’t get into computers, I wasn’t that kind of person, but I could maybe think of some of the things that he did. And imagine some of the things that he could do with these computers, and somehow, you know, do some of the things, but I really took a lot of my hard work, my work ethic, my thought about giving back, because he was always into helping out of the church, always into volunteering and everything. And so, you know, I said, I want to be exactly like that I want to give back. And so when I tell you a little bit about, you know, my career, you get to the point you will understand right there, where that intersected my thoughts about him. And my mother, too, is also she was a public servant, volunteered, did a lot of things in her church, as well. And and so that’s in our family, to have that. And so you do get to a point in your life, if you have now or will in the future that you realize that what your values intersect with how you were brought up and and who you actually emulate. So I think that’s a great question, Kurt, because that will really lead into who we are.

Curt Anderson  06:55

All right, we’re just going to take a moment and savor that one. So big shout out to Alvin. And what’s mom’s name? Joyce, Joyce, and we talked quite a bit about Joyce and just you know, what an inspiration mom and dad are in so great answer here. Hey, we’ve got some friends. We had summer gave a shout out How about her partner in crime Shane, Shane, and some of our guests on ours of ours, two months ago, and man, they were criminal. They are Emma and EP alumni. We’ve got on bail is coming here. She was like, Man, I couldn’t miss this one. My partner in crime, the code Donnelly, she’s right around the corner from you in Virginia. We’ve got Karen dropping the note. So again, guys, today, we have Carol Thomas, the former MEP director. And so this is gonna be a great conversation. So we’re talking about Joyce and Alvin being a great inspiration. Carol young. Yeah, we just say like, Hey, I’m gonna go to Drexel, I’m going to I’m going to have this great, wonderful career in fashion. things off, you start at the National Gallery of Art coming out of college, because like, how did that come on your radar? How did you gravitate towards? Where did art come into the picture? And then how that led you to the MVP? I can’t wait. But how did you get Gallery of Art?

Carroll Thomas  08:06

Well, okay, so you skip the part of my life there. Oh, I actually, once I graduated from college, I went into retail for a little bit, working for some major department stores that are no longer here. And I really got into the business and decided that, you know, maybe this is something that I could do, and was able to purchase with the help of my parents a Yeah, a franchise that I actually expanded into manufacturing, and would manufacture my own frames and everything and would put in do installations and University of Pennsylvania Hospital offices and various different lawyers offices. I had a contract with the Secret Service to bring the badges on once I graduated, also with Philadelphia Airport to put large, you know, custom made decor on the walls and so that I, I decided I wanted to go into business. Both my parents actually came from entrepreneurs. My mother is from Belize. And she had her family had the largest bakery, in in the country, actually. And you can go on Google and find a picture of Charles Lindbergh and my grandfather because when Charles Lindbergh landed in Belize, he met my grandfather and who had the bakery and they were thinking of putting baked goods all over the country. I So, I mean, it was really something to see. And this is back in, like 1920 90, you know, around in that area when just flight started. And that’s my grandfather on my mother’s side was a real, real honest to goodness entrepreneur, he was actually from Jamaica moved to believe. And he had his bakery in two different countries, you know, and so that all of that, you know, in my mind, I’m thinking, I want to have business, you know, I could do this, you know, until I did it, and then it’s like, Oh, my goodness, this is real, folks, when you are an entrepreneur, I know a lot of people will go around bragging. But when you’re by yourself, you’re not necessarily bragging you you are, you are trying to lick your wounds and come out, like, you know, a star, because you feel I’ve got to be a star, and I’m an entrepreneur, no matter how bad things are, no matter how good things are. You know, if you’re an entrepreneur, you’ve had that moment. And you know, when you get paid, it’s a beautiful thing. When you are an entrepreneur and you go to work for somebody else, and they pay you, you can hardly, you know, you’re like, wow, I actually got money for I still can’t get over, you know, getting paid and not being, you know, and it’s like, well, this is, this is pretty good. Yeah. So you feel like you have to work hard. And that fits again, right into after having this business for about six years. I did the best I could. I did. All right, I wasn’t gangbusters. But I did understand exactly what it means to be an entrepreneur, the good and the bad. I had articles written in the papers about how well I did and, you know, and I was like, yes, yes, but behind the scenes, like, Oh, my God, pay these employees, you know, yeah. But everything worked out well. And when my dad got sick, he got cancer, I sold the business moved back to the DC area. And he you know, he subsequently passed, and that’s when I started working for the National Gallery of Art, and I just wanted something that could get me back into the art and, you know, whatever they had, I took it. And so it was at the lowest level, starting there, and really grew to love the organization and all the artwork, and I worked in the area that helped to bring in money into the, into the museum, not the donor money, but museums have intellectual property that they, you know, make various different things that they sell in their gift shops. And my job was to get those different things, intellectual property items into various different types of, you know, things for the museum, and any of the exhibits that they had, like, say, if they worked with the National Gallery of London, or if they worked with, you know, the Louvre or if they worked with, you know, some other, the mat or whatever, to get those items into things that could be sold. And it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed all the intellectual property, information that I learned and working with the people in the museums, it was, it was great. And that’s when I had the idea, you know, because there was a, an exhibit that is now not the same exhibit, but the artists for mere JOHANNS, Vermeer, that it’s a huge thing when there’s only I believe, like 23 or 24, actual Vermeer’s in the world. And right now they’re having an exhibit, believe it’s in the Netherlands and the National Gallery of Art had it then. And I mean, it was huge. It was a blockbuster lines of people, everybody was my best friend and because they wanted tickets to get in. And in my mind, how can we make the most of this? This is when that whole electronic retail started. This is when you had the home shopping network and then QVC and Barry Diller by the way started both Okay. And, and my idea was I contacted them and I said, we have this huge exhibit, we’re going to have more exhibits. This is great for television, and you know, you will always need something to sell their things from the gift shop. And they contacted me and said, Wow, that’s a great idea. Why don’t you come and work? You know, for QVC? I said, No, you know, I, I’ve done my stint in retail I’m not really interested in and they said, well, we’ll pay you double what you’re getting paid and museum like I’m there. The museum paint crap, you know? You’re like, Oh, yeah. Okay. Monday. Time you want me to start? Right, exactly, exactly. And I pitched them doing it the math, of course doing at San Diego, San Diego Museum of Art at all of the big museums around us. Brooklyn Museum, Cleveland Museum, Dallas Museum, all these wonderful museums across the country, I said, they all have wonderful exhibits, and they all have merchandise, you know? Well, they, you know, when QVC thinks of things, they do things well in advance. So they had a number of things already in place, one of which was the quest for America’s best. So they had actually done it once. And it was crazy successful. And this was quest for America’s best to and what I was given, like about $75 million to go to all 50 states and talk to, you know, work with the economic development organizations there and find at least 20 products from each state. And then once you find it, you purchase it, and then you go on air, three hour live show from wherever, yeah, which was really exciting because they had the one and only studio in a bus. So this bus could go all over the country. As a matter of fact, it was loaded up on a C one plane, and flown to Hawaii for the show in Hawaii, flown to Alaska for the show in Alaska, but it was at all 50 states. And so I started and I’ve been to all 50 states twice, not, but I started my first time was going around and working. You know, I come to town and okay, we’re we’re here from QVC we would like to see your products that could possibly be on. We’re not taking anything that has to do with toilets. We’re not taking forever, we’re not taking live animals. We’re not taking anything pornographic. So everything else is on the table. You can you can do this. And gosh, I mean, it was incredible. When we tallied it up, I’d seen about almost 25,000 inventors and manufacturers all over the country. I can tell you there’s a hot sauce and every state every state there’s a cookbook in every state, you know of, you know, favorites from you know, Florida, you know, this is a this and this is one I mean this has to be the most innovative country in the universe. Okay, I mean, I saw everything. Yeah. And so it was and I saw a lot I met tons of people all had their hopes and dreams, you know of coming on QVC becoming a millionaire becoming a star and and it was it was wonderful. It brought me it gave me the opportunity to meet people in MVP. I’d never heard of this program before. And there were times when we wanted to put the product on but there the quality wasn’t up there the pricing was off. Packaging wasn’t there packaging was a big problem. And went to Rhode Island and there were a pair of them forget silver earrings but they needed to be sad to make sure that they had they were truly silver as you know, quality silver. And we had to essay about 10% and they they had to give it to us you know But it had been assays and they had nobody. And so there’s where I met the first MVP. And connect. It was, I don’t know, I don’t even know who or how, but it came to be that this organization could do this. Right. So, you know, I connected them came back, everything that solved, it was great. Wonderful. And matter of fact, they were able to produce the quantity, because this is another thing with QVC. You can’t you can’t buy small quantities, you have to have enough to sell across the country. And when I say sell, I mean, you had to if you were going to order less than $100,000 Worth, you had to get the President’s, okay, the president company, oh, okay that because they wanted a $250,000 Buy. And if you’re a little company, that means that you have to have that cash flow, that allows you to produce the item package the item, shipped the item and wait for payment, around four to five months. And we wanted the small companies, but it was it was hard for them to do that. And went to South Dakota met up with the MEP there, they were with the university and went to South Carolina. Oh my goodness. I mean, I can tell you say and I can tell you the product.

Curt Anderson  21:34

So let’s, let’s unpack a few things. So this is gonna be great. So I want to set the stage here. So again, guys, if you’re just joining us, we’re here with Carol Thomas. Carol has had an amazing, illustrious just just a fantasy career really has and encouraged you welcome you invite you absolutely want to connect with Carol on LinkedIn, check her out. She’s just just such a breath of fresh air as you can tell. And we’re just we’re taking you through we’re going through this path of entrepreneur to this art, our career transition into QVC. And for those of us old enough, you know, that was cutting edge. Use the word electronic commerce. I mean, like, we’re from a generation where like, you know, that like, Hey, what is this electronic commerce, and I want to give a shout out we got a few friends here. Trust a trust has been with TAC for a number of years, she went from the New York Times on the south, this Eastern Tech, she’s saying hello, you know, my partner’s saying, you know, wow, what a legacy Carol, we’ve got, you know, Gary is saying tell it Carol, and you know, so much subs, so much great product here in United States. Now, Nicole asked what were some of the most yeah,

Damon Pistulka  22:48

that’s that I was gonna ask. Before we go

Curt Anderson  22:50

there, so you and the MEP couple of times what I like to do let’s like, let’s I mean this, you know, you lived it. We’re living through you. You went to 50 countries, you’re on QVC 50s Do your thing. And you know, you’re traveling in like, you know, big corporate career. So like your high flying like you are really lean a charge. I’d love for you to mention, like the Fred Segal story, you know, mentioned that. But you’ve mentioned MEP a couple of times. And so just if you guys if you’re not familiar with this, if you’re new, it’s the Manufacturing Extension Partnership. Yes. We’re going to slide into that. But Carol, let’s talk about your experience with the 50 states, maybe some of the coolest products. I know you’ve got a really cool and from Alaska. But then what I’d like to do is then we’re going to transition into like, what is this MEP? How it came into your radar, and how you walk into into your life?

Carroll Thomas  23:42

Yeah. Oh, the products. You know, I still have samples of I have worked at QVC since January of 2000. But 2000 Yes, yeah. So 23 years ago. Yeah. Yeah, that was that was one of the best jobs I have ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever had. I mean, I’m a shopper to begin with. Give me money to my job is to buy stuff. Are you kidding me? Look at stuff advice.

Curt Anderson  24:19

If anybody missed it, what was your budget? You said it earlier? What was your $75 million 1,000,070 $5 million for this person over the college ago as a fashion designer right now you have a $75 million budget so let’s let’s go there and Ben grid the chat box is on fire as people are.

Carroll Thomas  24:37

Well, okay. Now, I think this was the brisk I had never heard or seen anything like this before. But they had something called an electric tongue scraper. Okay, that I mean And I’ll tell you a story about about that, that started me on a path because I started to get an idea, okay, if I’m gonna be, you know, testing these products and you know doing this, I need an assistant, because the ones I don’t want to test, I’m gonna have that person test. So the tongue scraper was the first one. All right, you test that Felix. I’ll never forget, we were riding around in in Louisiana. Does that tell you we’re working with economic development folks, got into Louisiana and met this guy named Felix. I can’t even think of his last name. He was retiring. And he asked, you know, would you all be hiring? And I said, Yes, yes, your job is to do and taste and whatever the things I don’t want. Okay, so we’re in Alaska, and one of the products was alligator, on Dewey, and Dewey or whether it was a sausage. I’m like, Felix, your job is to taste that alligator and doing stuff. Whatever it is, because I’m not tasting it. You tell me if it’s good. If you think we can sell it. I’ll believe you. Okay, maybe. And so he tested it. He tested the tongues that electric See, I’ve heard of tongue scrapers but in the electric one sound bad. Yeah. So he he tested that one. And then we got to Hawaii. Oh, gosh. Okay, Hawaii. Here’s here’s a product for you. And this could be TMI, it was called Colin blow. I said we weren’t to use anything. We can’t buy anything. That has to do with the bathroom. Right? Yeah. So we I think he changed his name but that we still got it on in a dead well.

Curt Anderson  26:56

Speaking are what was your you have a funny Alaska product that you that you discovered? Was it one of your best selling products?

Carroll Thomas  27:03

Oh, no, no, it wasn’t? Yeah, in Alaska. That’s right. That’s right. The number one product of all 1000 products across the country in this was 1997. Okay. 1997 was a beautiful mousse made out of wood. And it was partially, you know, parts of it had to be actually hand carved, and then put together. So this moose was about maybe about 10 by 20 inches, beautiful wood really nice. And it had like a cavity in the top of it. And so you were to put in a king with malted milk balls, you were to put the malted milk balls into the cabinet. And then you pick the tail up, and it would poop. A malted milk. Oh, my

28:00

goodness, that was their that was their best selling product. Oh, me.

Damon Pistulka  28:03

So funny, though.

Carroll Thomas  28:05

4995 and people bought it sold out? I can’t believe it. I see what people are crazy. Okay, why can I come up with a product I could sell

Curt Anderson  28:21

the malted milk mob over the malted milk ball. So so let’s go here, Carol. So the fascinating thing is, you mentioned the first state you hear about this MEP thing is Rhode Island, then you go to another state, they mentioned this MEP thing, then you’re like, man, does that mean he’s in all 50 states, the manufacturing extension partnership. So talk about like, you know, we’re constantly interviewing folks from the MEP network, and just what a great resource you mentioned earlier, entrepreneurs are lonely, it’s challenging, but just talk about how the MEP came into, you know, your life and how became a great resource, as you’re, you know, on the quest through 50 states of finding all these manufacturers, and then I know you had an unfortunate event that occurred we talked about let’s let’s go there.

Carroll Thomas  29:08

It was amazing, because entrepreneurs, as I said, can it can be lonely, but I think particularly if you’re a manufacturer, because you are put on the spot to make something and produce it again and again and again, exactly the way it was in a way that provides you enough margin so you can make a profit and you need suppliers, people that you’re buying things from and you need equipment to help you make it and you need people to make it. And in this, you have to figure out ways to improve it and stuff. There are definitely challenges and some of the same challenges with service businesses. But with manufacturers too. It’s just, you know, there are times when your equipments not working or you don’t have it, or just, it just seems like, and maybe because I had that experience a lot. It just, it’s hard, it’s very, very hard. Every time I hear of a hurricane or anything like that, I think of the equipment underwater, I think of, you know, so many things that can happen to the people who are making things. So it’s always part of, in my mind, and who I am, no matter how old I get, it’s always in my head. And so the fact that there was a an organization that focus on manufacturers really got my attention, I thought it was a very cool thing I had, when I had my business, I was actually a client of the SBDC. Yeah, so as a small business owner, I had someone to talk to. And however, the part of the production and different kinds of things, there wasn’t somebody that that really understood, you know, having to take down a line and bringing it back and how quickly you need to do this. And just, and employees that get hurt on the equipment, and all kinds of things, all the safety and stuff that were involved in. And so I really thought, This is great. And then actually, I believe in 1997, there. The MVP wasn’t exactly in all states yet, I think it was in all states as of 1998. And, but through there, there were some organizations, the ones that were part of the MVP, because in a couple of states where there wasn’t, we worked with a maybe some of the universities or some consulting companies, I saw immediately that those consulting companies were really the pricing and the types of information they gave, and how they gave it was not for a smaller company, you know, so I understood that immediately. And to have an organization that really focuses on those smaller and midsize companies is a pretty big deal. And the one of the the things that helped with to is sometimes these owners just needed somebody to talk to somebody, they understood where they were, and then could meet them, where they were to help them get to where they want to go or where they need to go. And as I said, I saw everything and one of the the first shows that we had live was Hawaii. And it was it was a great show. There were I still remember a lot of the products, everything macadamia nuts in Hawaii is fabulous. They had this macadamia pie the crust was crushed macadamia nuts. It was so good. I kept saying you know, I think I need another sample because I’m not

Curt Anderson  33:39

that you didn’t give that one to Felix Did you

Carroll Thomas  33:44

know No, Felix did not get that one. Or nor the chocolate covered next? Yeah. Good that. You know, Felix was like, Okay, you can just take a vacation right now. I’m great here. Yeah. But there was this one gentleman that had you know, he was just so full of life. And, and part of it the MVP experiences, we would put the owner on with this product. So you would get like, enthusiasm. It was wonderful. So this guy, he says, oh, you know, I really want my stuff on, you know, this is great. And he had T shirts and T shirts were you know, they they were nice, but QVC I wouldn’t say it’s like a tourist kind of thing. It was more of a, you know, real products that people could use. And, and because it was television, what you saw on their hands, you know, they couldn’t make claims, if it weren’t real because of the FTC coming in. So. So real Series products, even though I know a lot of people see those tchotchkes on there. No, not really. And so his T shirts I said you No, I’m gonna have to buy a lot of this. So if it doesn’t sell, and this is something for any of you who want to get your products on QVC there, they do have it. So they actually buy it, but most of the sale that they try to do is what’s called sale return. So if it doesn’t sell, you get back what doesn’t sell. And then you have to liquidate it, you know, you have to have other customers. And that was one of my big things, make sure you have some other channel to sell. And so I put on a couple of gentleman’s t shirt, T shirts and got two for 99. And it was, you know, really good. didn’t sell that, well, though, it was kind of a slow mover, you got six minutes, because it’s not square footage, this is time. And it didn’t sell well. And then we had sent it back, we sent back quite a bit of it, because I would say maybe it sold about seven to 8% of the total. And, you know, the guy was calling so can you give me more time and like, unfortunately, we can’t because because there’s only 24 hours in a day. It you know, with square footage, you could just enlarge store with that use finite amount of time, so we really couldn’t do it. And and we gave him you know what we owed from what sold. And, you know, as buyer, I kind of know my next thing then. But you know, he kept calling back. And it was it’s kind of sad to hear. And eventually he told me he lost his house. And I thought wow, that’s that’s that’s pretty, that’s pretty rough. But you really have to have some another channel there. And then I found out that he killed himself. And that that touch something you need, because here I am. I’m all over the place. I am the person. Everybody, you know, I get on the plane and it’d be like The Godfather, people will Oh, virus on the plane here. Could you could you sell this. I mean, my landlord was trying to get me to sell stuff. And I was good. I was good at negotiating the deals. But I didn’t like that. That wasn’t who I was. That’s not how I was brought up. I was brought up helping people I loved taking, getting people getting their product out there. I mean, there were so many wonderful people that I had a chance to be. And this hurt. I mean, this really, really hurt. And I was in my I would say mid 40s. When I was doing this, I was probably the oldest person at QVC. Because they were all very young. And, and I had to decide, okay, what do who am I? What do I, what do I stand for? And yes, I’m good at this. But just because you can doesn’t mean you should. And in meeting up with the MEP, I said, You know what, that’s me. I can help people I can. And the jobs that they had available. There was I started out, I left and went into when I thought I was going to be actually helping clients but I went into somehow I ended up at the federal government. And I’m like, Oh crap. And actually, it was a good thing. Because I was able to work with the people who had the real understanding of manufacturing and real passion for manufacturing. And my job was to help them you know, get the word out. So manufacturers knew about what they could get. And I did it. I love to do that. Because these people I got a chance to meet. I went out on a sales call in New Jersey and to the twins Sam and Subash and Marie. And they had a plastics extrusion company, and they’re actually still clients of them up. And they mean I know you you help with companies in succession planning, well, here are these two guys. And their dad had just died and they took over the business and he didn’t know what to do. Yeah, so I was with this expert who really able to help them figure out what to do with the business you know going forward, but they wanted to hear from me. Oh, you’re on QVC we want to get our stuff on QVC I’m like no. Right? Oh no. And their product was cases for lipstick and different types of cosmetics and makeup paces and all those. And eventually they did get something on QVC but before they did they got their stuff together.

Curt Anderson  40:32

Sure, well let’s let’s unpack a couple of things that we can give a couple of shout outs again guys, if you’re coming in after just jumped off a previous call. We are here with Carol Thomas Carol was the former director of the entire MEP network, the Manufacturing Extension Partnership. We’ve got Diane Byers, she’s with tech in the mid Atlantic region. We’ve got Whitney join us today. Whitney Happy Monday. Thank you for joining us. If anything you miss boy, I encourage you invite you back and just play or catch on a walk or whatever you’re out walking the dog tonight. Catch this conversation with Carol. Yeah, I just want to unpack so like Carol, you’re flying first class all over the country. You like I love your analogy. Like I felt like The Godfather like yes, pushing your ring of like, you know, get my product. But I mean, you made at a young age like you are a corporate warrior. You are you know, Barry Diller we talked about like Fred Segal, you had great mentors, this rising company, you’re on the cutting edge of E commerce. And unfortunately, if you guys miss it, please go back. You know, we won’t dig back into it. But tragedy strikes. And that really hits you and I think it just really stands it’s a what a testament to like Alvin enjoys and like, you know who you are person. But you you know, you take this, you go from this high flying corporate job, you know, no disrespect, but you know, to the corporate to, you know, to the civil servant, you know, Virtual Job. Talk about like that leap of faith that you shared with me, like, I don’t want to say that you felt like you made a mistake. But you’re like, man, what did I do, but talk about that leap of faith, but how you stuck with your convictions, and then working with MVP, New Jersey, the twins, and like how you finally i How did you finally finally find home? At the MVP?

Carroll Thomas  42:14

Yeah, well, three weeks after I got to the quit. Yeah, I did. Because I said, I’m not helping companies. And I’m, I’m in the government, oh, my God,

Curt Anderson  42:28

no more first class, no more calls

Carroll Thomas  42:32

and all that sit in middle seats all exactly the plane, you know, my gosh, you know, this, right? How can you do that. But it going out, and meeting twins going out being able to go out around the country, because that was long before I became a director. I was totally in love with the MEP program. I mean, as smitten as you can possibly be, because I was a public servant. Nobody that that did that loved what I was doing. I got into it, because I saw and I knew from experience what was needed. But then I saw, I went out and met the people who actually helped these companies. And I just, I said, You are fabulous. I am, I am here for you. What can I do? You know, I want to make sure that when you go out and you work with a company, that you you understand how they feel, I’m going to tell you hopes and dreams all these people have hopes and dreams and not just people looking for help with Lean, they have families and communities they they grow into it, they grow they, you know, lots of different things. And so I looked at them as people and when you look at them, you know, like governance was to help people in many different ways. But when you have something like this that really transcends and is the fabric of this country, I mean really understand what this means.

Curt Anderson  44:22

You you can’t

Carroll Thomas  44:23

help but fall in love. I mean, I had some of the best times in my whole life. Visiting people in their plants. I love to go to plants. I want to go on vacation to go to plants. I mean, my absolute favorite, you know, I don’t know, a onion ring factory in Nebraska, where first 15 minutes you’re balling because of the onion. Does this happen every day every day You know, or, you know, ball bearing plant in Virginia? Yeah. Just we make everything here. Yes, make everything here. And you have to see how things are made to really understand. You know, what we’re all about

Curt Anderson  45:23

what you know. And I just need to interject. In our dear friend summer here, you know, 100% That is a message she gave us such a great leader. And so summer thank you for joining us today. We’ve got Whitney again, drop in comments here. You know, words live by from Vail. Just do something doesn’t matter to do it. So and you’re really you’re making an impact today? Yeah, impact. Now, Damon, if I you know, if I get there must be onions in my house, if I get choked up here, great conversation. But what I love and so, you know, we were both alumni from the SBDC Small Business Development Center. And I’d say my preach was always like, Dream supporters, we are dream supporters at the SBDC. And now like we Damon, I have aligned with MEPs. Same thing, and now that you hit it right on the head, it’s not about manufacturing this pen, it’s about that hope that you’re giving, it’s the dream, it’s the goals, it’s ever other employees, other families, that our kids are going to Little League and dance lessons and just, you know, provide to the community. So Carol, keep the fire rollin, man, let’s just share your early story. And then we’ll slide we’ll we’ll keep the ball rolling, and how you eventually became the director.

Carroll Thomas  46:33

Yeah, the the stories that I have, that I cherish the most are with the going out and visiting the companies and, and talking and seeing the pride not just by the owners, but the people that work there. I had an opportunity, you know, long before I was a director to get in and to see and and to really find out what what is needed and what the people in the program who actually help the companies do not just the center directors because yeah, I know the center directors. But I’m talking about the the, you know, the receptionist, who answered the calls from the companies when they call and are very, you know, cheerfully assisting them, connecting them to somebody that could come out and see what needed who who talked to them right after maybe a disastrous happen, or some big company that they used to supply his is left, or all kinds of things that happened. And so it is it was very good to be able to work with them. I worked not as a director with the MEP program for 12 and a half years and, and then I got this call from a really good friend of mine at the SBA, who was the Deputy Director for the SBDC program. And she wanted a detail assignment at NIST. She wanted to work with the MEP program, and I said, You know what the SBA and the SBDCs do a wonderful job of following the Baldrige Principles. I said, I know the guy, the new guy, he’s the head of the Baldrige, I’m connected there. So she went in wonderful woman, absolutely wonderful woman, and, and got through, she was in the senior executive Candidate Development Program, and went back over to the SBA, she was going to take over the SBDC program, and within a month, she got a tumor and died of cancer. And here was the position that my good friend Jean Jean Smith was gonna be in and and I applied for it. And I got the position and I never thought I would, I would get the position first of all, but nice, I said I’m gonna do this. Now. This is my first you know, since being a business owner, a senior executive in the government and I was buyer at the, you know, QVC but I was like an executive, you know, so this I had to step in this role and, and meet this all of these people across the country and and talk to you In these state directors who who were much more knowledgeable in this area, all I could say was, well, I was a past client. Yeah. And they’re, well, then you should know what we need, we need your help. That’s okay. I’ll listen. So one of the things I learned as a leader is that you don’t necessarily know everything. And you, I hope you don’t know everything you do know how to listen. Every leader knows how to listen. And you have to listen with your head and your heart. And you listen to find out how you can support the people who are doing the work, and how you all can work together. And one of the things I remember telling Kurt was that just before I went over to SBA, I started an organization within the federal government to bring all of the people who work on government programs that help business. So you may be at the IRS, you may be at EPA, you may be at Labor Department, whatever, do you you may have content, you know, that information that business owners could use, or you may have a delivery system, like with the Department of Energy, their eye sees their assessment centers, and, you know, their industrial assessment centers or or some thing and you all need to to be a little bit more seamless with these companies. Does everybody have to fill out an application and everywhere they go? Does everybody have to tell you, I mean, I’m a little tiny business, I don’t have time to go over this place. Can you all get it together? Think about something. So we started this little group, grassroots, no legislation, no money, and we refused to meet at the same agency, you went around. We went around. And this was started with my good friend over at SBA, Antonio Doss, the two of us, he knew somebody, I knew somebody, they knew somebody, and we all came together. And so what happened when I was called into to go over the SBA into li the SBDC. Several people knew me from different places, and I could call on assistance, places that the SBA, the SBDC, could work together. And as a new leader, I was able to to get things going, but as fate would have it, as fate would have it, I’m the MEP director position came up. And that was just, you know, I wasn’t even paying attention to it. Matter of fact, the NIS director at the time, saw me at a meeting and say, hey, you know, the MEP directors positions open and I’m like, so. You should apply for it. Me? I don’t, you know, I’m not. No, I don’t. Really you should miss. Oh, my gosh, are you kidding me? Alright, fine. I’ll do that. Now, I’m gonna tell you a little bit about the personal life here. I took a long time before I got married. Okay, I was, you know, because I was having fun, I was doing a lot of different things. And it just so happened when I finally found the person to get married to was about three months before my mother had a stroke. And I was still at SBA. I was helping my mother get through the stroke. 95%. I mean, she’s, she’s probably actually 110% and just a newlywed, and then apply for this job at NIST and got this job at NIST. It was so so so kind of surreal for me that, you know, I would come in in the morning and see my name on the door and just burst out laughing. I’m like, Oh my gosh, can you believe this? This can’t be true. How did this happen? Like what rabbit holes it is. So this is wild, wild, wild wild. So

Curt Anderson  54:52

let’s, let’s unpack a couple things real quick, and we might sneak over I know guys. So again, happy Monday. Thank you for joining us. heard as Curtis was a guest few weeks ago, Curtis, what a great interview. Thank you for joining us today. He’s dropping a note, you know, lots of great nuggets here. You know, Whitney drops another note here, listen with your head in your heart. But you know, this story is just such a, you know, you think about some of the work that you think about through the story, Damon, courage, just the courage, the take to raise your hand, what do you have to lose? And Carol, you have a mentor that shared a wonderful quote with you. And I think like, you know, you shared it with me, and I think it really carries you through your career. How hard can it be? How can that be? And then I want to dig into this right now. So let’s, again, Damon, think about this. Goes at Drexel to get into fashion ends up, you know, entrepreneur with a franchise goes into the art gallery gets into QVC, you know, has this you know, dreadful, awful, you know, event that really changed her whole direction. Her and tell you I mean, Carol, just like you could have, you could have wrote off in the sunset at QVC fine. Doing your like you could have had a great career, what courage it took for your conviction to leave and say this is not for me, this is not for me. And just you found a home and just think of the 1000s and 1000s of lives that you’ve impacted, either directly or indirectly through the MEP. So now it’s 2015 if I haven’t cracked, mom has a stroke. You’re a newlywed, and you throw your name in the hat. And now like and when you you’re and again, guys, if you just let this sink in, if you miss this, she’s walking into her office, looking at her name on a door, like, you know, how did this happen? And you said something to me on one of our recent calls. You’re like, and I said, Carol, what was that? Like? You know what? And you said something that was so inspiring and like, hey, why not me? Why not me? So whatever wherever you’re at in life out there, and like you know, there’s a challenge maybe you want to take a new leap of faith you’re gonna go from like first class QVC and take this really scary, you know, trajectory where three weeks in you wanted to quit so Kara, I’m gonna stop on that. But just you know, just share okay, you you started dragging. And Damon, here’s one more thing I have to throw this in Carroll. There was challenges with the budget, like I if I’m not mistaken, like, there were, like, Word on the Street was like, hey, is this MVP thing worth? It is in like, all sudden, like, your name is on a door. So now that does fall on your plate. You’ve got 1000 plus employees that are that are leaning on you take us through what did that look like? How did that feel as a director and the challenges, you know, those first year, that first year or two?

Carroll Thomas  57:37

Yeah. And what was interesting is that in the 12 and a half years that I had been at MEP before there had been several years where we, we were on the chopping block to be, you know, defunded. And one year in 2004, we actually lost about 67% of our budget, and a lot of people had to wear rift. I was actually in a situation that if I hadn’t been I would also been let go as well. It was, you know, it’s a tough program because being within even though it’s great to be within the National Institute of Standards and Technology, it’s not like your SBDC. at SBA, we have the Department of Commerce with 12 bureaus, including the Patent and Trademark Office, the NOAA they atmospheric and mean you have you have lots of of your way down deep into it. And so, in my first year as director of the program, and having everybody looked to me, what is your vision, my vision, okay. My my vision, I guess is we are going forward people forward. You know, but I had to get a heads up get real serious. And because in the second year, we were back on the chopping block and going to get to zero. And my thing was, I always felt and still do and will always feel that this is a great program for small companies. Those small manufacturers out there that have no idea that’s out there. I feel, you know, anxious, I want them to know about it. I challenged every single person in the federal side or in on the non federal side, find a manufacturer and tell them about it because it’s not good if we’re here they’re struggling and they don’t you know, they don’t Need to they need to know that somebody’s there, that understands what they’re going through. So with that I had to give people a reason not to, to be, you know, fearful or in, look at actually going forward. And so what I did was I asked everybody to, you know, define what they, they feel manufacturing is, and then define what we do with them. And with each of them, everybody said, Well, we can help with this, we do this, we, you know, a lot of the people in MEP came from manufacturing, so they truly do understand it. And so the, the idea was, we show value to those companies, they understand that we’re there to help them. And we survey to make sure that we are always showing value. So I said, Okay, during this period of time, until they actually zeroes out, we need to show value to our clients, like we always do. But to everybody else, let everybody know, that we are showing value. And And with that, stay busy on what we’re trying to do not on what’s happening around because there was so much going on, around some, you know, lots of political things that always happen. You know, I mean, you’re in Washington, this is what happens. But you have to think about the whole country. So I had, I said, Okay, what can I do as director that would get everybody rowing together. And I’m not technical. I don’t I mean, I see a whole lot coming on with advanced manufacturing. And that’s great. But what brings people together, and one of the things I’ve always thought of is, there’s no way that, you know, they’re having what 8 million people on this planet was serendipitous. With this many people, we are to do things together, somehow, we need to do things together. And ever since I had started with the MEP program, one of the things that I noticed that each senator was, you know, for, I’m Kentucky, I’m Louisiana, I’m Tennessee. And I said, what we need to do is think about how much more successful we could be is, if we worked that not only are we have, you know, Hawaii, but we’re of New York, we’re of Michigan, we’re up. And so if you don’t have staff, or information, you can reach out call them, you know them and say, hey, look, I need this. What are you doing with that, or be proactive, we now have this wonderful apprenticeship program that really works well. You need to hear about it. And so rather than because sometimes it was even competition with with the center, rather than compete, think about exponentially having 50 partners, with you to work together to make sure that everybody in your marketplace, you know, is well taken care of has the information they need, the connections they need, those kinds of things. So instead of being, you know, 51, MEP centers, we’re being a National Network of Manufacturing Excellence and expertise. So that the particularly the small and medium size manufacturers out there, not only you know, maybe they can’t afford big time consultant, but this is the biggest we have a national network of manufacturing experts that not even the big companies have. See, we’re now very unique, very special. And that’s the message that I put out to everybody and they embrace it. And when I started I started with the end in mind, because to me, you got to be careful as a leader that you don’t take yourself too seriously. That you don’t become you know, I am you know the all and you know when it’s time for you to step out It’s time for you to bring in somebody with more experience. And so I said, once that got a hold, it would be time for me to, you know, bow out. Finally, spend some time with my husband, have more quality time with my mother, and be there for the next leader that comes in. So our new MEP director has me in her air going, Okay, do this now. I give her I mean, she’s a, you know, has incredible experience, incredible background for VENA Raghavan actually was the deputy for the New York economic development organization, she was running at $800 million program, she comes to run, you know, a barely $200 million program. So she can do this no problem at all. But I give her context I give her what I would have loved to have somebody to talk to, you know, when things are, are good and bad. And, and I’m there till she doesn’t want me anymore.

Curt Anderson  1:06:19

That’s phenomenal. And a few things I want to unpack is just, you know, the grace, the humility and Carol, we talked about leadership the other day, and I have that’s one of my notes. And I’m glad you said that. And you know, if you’re a fan of Stephen Covey, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, he says clearly and concisely, right up there. I think mine’s right over there. You know, start with the end in mind. And what you talked about Damon, you’re gonna absolutely love this. We had Don schmucky on the program. Yes, that saga. And so Kara, what you shared with me, getting people to see the greater cause. And so even you know, in an organization such as the MEP, we’re like, you know, hey, boy, our budget is at threat here. You know, what does this look like? And how can you get that greater good? Hey, you’re in Hawaii? Well, guess what, you can collaborate with folks in Maine, or Florida, or wherever it might be. So again, bringing 1400 experts together, you know, you must have healthy communication. Regardless of the awkwardness. I love that you shared. You know, sometimes you’ve got to play good cop, bad cop, you have a little fun. And I want to start winding down because I know you’re super busy. I want to be respectful of your time. And again, folks, you know, I you know, we’ve been going at this. You have a funny bubble wrap story. Can you just share your your?

Carroll Thomas  1:07:31

Yeah, yes. I can be painfully honest, I mean, painfully honest. And, and I feel it’s important. Because it gives, then what you say real Credence. I mean, people then, you know, when you say something that they understand that, you know, at this time, of course of that jump, but I mean, when I when I’m saying something, and I’m trying to get something across to somebody that they really believe me? Well, I had some, you know, important news to share with the senators, which I knew, you know, the Senate leadership I knew wasn’t gonna go over well, so I wrapped myself all up in bubble wrap. And I came out, you know, in front, and this was when we, for those of you been with MVP, we did. We had a conference in Detroit. What’s it was the Detroit? Yeah, it was, it was in Detroit. And I came out and with the bubble wrap on and I delivered what I had to deliver. But the books on the basis of our buy were like, What in the world? Yeah, and it was good. It got their attention. They did remember what I said. And I kept that bubble wrap on the entire time. I said, Yes, I want you to understand, I am not going to sugarcoat this, I’m going to tell you what you need to know. Right? And please don’t kill the messenger, or shoot

Curt Anderson  1:09:07

the messenger. I’ve got bubble wrap, for protection. But I absolutely love that just you know how you tackle these things, just with grace, poise, and like you said, just authenticity is, you know, a big takeaway for me from our conversations, and just, you know, just your passion for helping manufacturers and entrepreneurs across the country and really trying to help the MEP, stop being the best kept secret, right? We talked a little bit about that. So we’re gonna wind down here again, I want to be I want to be respectful of his time. Damon, what takeaways for you today just

Damon Pistulka  1:09:41

but you know, or it starts way back when you when you had the epiphany at QVC is like, I might be good at this. But doesn’t mean when I’m meant to do and that’s that’s a big step. And I know that a lot of people listening are gonna be if it hasn’t hit you, it will probably hit She one day and then him personally it hit me too. And then about listening in and that’s just leadership and listening, I think is is there go hand in hand or you’re not going to be a leader long. And then the last thing, why not me? You know, you talked about when you walked into your office kind of giggling seeing your name on the face. Everybody does. anybody listening? Don’t ever think in that position. When you get to that point you go, I really got hired for this, that we really want me to do this. They think I can do this. You know, everybody feels that way. And when you just said, why not? Me? Yes. I shouldn’t be here. I may not feel like it right now. But it will become apparent. I think there’s so much good in this. So much goodness stuff.

Curt Anderson  1:10:53

Be so so we’re gonna we’re gonna wrap things up. So again, guys, if you haven’t already, please connect with Carroll on LinkedIn. You will thank us later, Carroll. Take it take it home. My last question, and then any parting thoughts, words of wisdom, anything else that we left uncovered? But here’s my last question for you today, I opened up the conversation asking you who was your hero as a little girl growing up and we said Alvin and Joyce. And boy, what just a great story. And just, you know, for those and some are still here, man. Hey, summer. Appreciate you so much. Carol continues to be one of my favorite people, she has so much wisdom and grace can only have to have hope to have in my life. So much respect summer, we appreciate you tons of respect to you, and what you and Shane are doing with your company. So Carol, my question for you is who your hero was growing up? today? We’re in 2023. I know Joyce is on full recovery. She’s with you. You’re you’re still in that honeymoon stage all these many years later. But my question is, you have a lot of exciting things, you’re doing the board work, you’re helping, you’re still helping with MEP, you get your fingers in a few different pots? Who are what is your inspiration at this stage of your career for 2023? Who? Or what is really the driving force behind your success? What’s your inspiration moving forward?

Carroll Thomas  1:12:13

Well, okay, this is going to be really hard to believe but through my marriage, I have two kids, three, four grandchildren, and 10 great grandchildren, well, 991 is coming July 5. Great. And seeing and listening and hearing different things from the three ages, cuz my daughter is, you know, in her 50s and, you know, son just turned 50. And so the grandchildren are in there. Well, there’s one really young, but there’s in their 30s, and then now have the great grandchildren. Who are you know, they’re just full of questions. They’re full of thoughts. They’re full of things. And my there there, what I really see today in what where the world needs to go, there’s, you know, we’ve gone through COVID We’re real tired of it. There’s a lot of I would say anger, or disappointment or confusion, you know, those kinds of things going on? And can I work from home and not work from home? You know what you’re asking the wrong questions, you’re focusing on the wrong things. Focus on the things that you can contribute the things that you like, the things that you see in others, and just focus, just go there. The other things will believe it or not, they’ll work themselves out. They really will. If you focus on the things that you can contribute what you like, and supporting other people what they like, I thought it was gonna be really oof, you know, not so good to be the senior adviser to the NDP director. But no, it’s actually great. I am so so proud, so proud and so happy for our new leader and for the people that I get to work with on the boards for the the engagement with with the very young and young and all different age of People that we need to understand and focus on what’s real. What’s really important. You know?

Curt Anderson  1:15:15

Carroll, we’re just gonna, we’re gonna we’re gonna go, yep. I told her on Third, we had a great conversation last week I go curl, there’s gonna be a few drop the mic moments, we had plenty we had absolutely plenty. So I’m gonna, we’ll close out of this, Carroll, you know, Dave and I, we’d love to preach, hey, all the cool kids are going into manufacturing. And so you could just tell this story right here. So just kind of an indirect path. We talked about women in manufacturing, diversity, manufacturing, and young people in manufacturing. This is not your grandparents manufacturing in 2023. There are an enormous, incredible, amazing opportunities out there for young people of all walks of life to get into manufacturing. You know, me, I don’t know, if you’ve noticed, there’s been a few job cuts in the tech world out there, right? Well, hey, I’ll come to find a home just like Carol did. Find a home as a manufacturer in manufacturing, there’s automation, there’s technology, there’s marketing, there’s e commerce, there are so much different opportunity for photos. And so boy, if you are a tech guru out there, find out reach out and hug your local manufacturer while you’re at it, because they absolutely are the heroes of our economy. And lastly, we encourage you, we invite you your manufacturer out there, reach out to your local and MEP Manufacturing Partnership, there is one near you because there is one in all 50 states plus Puerto Rico. So first off, God bless you. Thank you, we appreciate you. We applaud you. We salute you. And boy, you guys, have you stuck with us through the end, man. How about summer Whitney, thank you so much. Thanks. has been sitting for a long time. Let’s stand up and let huge round of applause a standing ovation. For the one the only Carroll Thomas Carroll. What a great story. You are a gift. You are an icon in the manufacturing extension partnership world. And so thank you for firing on all cylinders. It just inspiring all of us. Damon, any parting thoughts? Any any? I’m like, thank you. I’m like, choked up right now.

Carroll Thomas  1:17:32

Well, but Curt, you have to tell them. How did it come that that I came on this? What happened? What did you do?

Curt Anderson  1:17:40

You know what? I raised my hand and I said, What do I have to lose? Right? How hard could it be? Yeah. Carroll Thomas. So I sent it I sent an email out. And Damon it was from our show when we were interviewing a couple millennials that are working that are working at IMEC and I think we had somebody from Purdue. And for summers been on our program. So rune offers, I sent out an email blast. And Carol bats. Carroll came back with a note. She was like, I couldn’t love this enough. And I’m like, Carol Thomas. Carol, I’d like Daymond I remember I either called your attention did Earl Thomas I’m asking her to come on the show because what do I have to lose? And so Carroll, thank you for accepting my my invite. You are so gracious. And I appreciate the friendship that you and I are creating. And we’ve got more comments coming in here. Yeah, Gail. Thank you Gail for being here to hurt us a sending a hug. You know, gals and Geralt is a huge advocate for manufacturing. And so she drops a note Hello. So, guys, we wish you an amazing incredible week. Go out there just pee someone’s inspiration. Just like Carroll is just spread it. It’s out there. We don’t need to look fire for it. So Carroll, hang out with us for one second. And we will see guys here on Friday for more fun but Carroll, thank you from the bottom my heart. I can’t tell you how much fun for me.

Damon Pistulka  1:19:09

Thanks for coming on.

Curt Anderson  1:19:11

So, okay, guys, have a great day. We’ll see you soon.